US News Top IP Programs

63 thoughts on “US News Top IP Programs”

1. 63

   phishy823 – I think you made a good choice for yourself because you get PTO experience and will be at school in one of the best areas in the US for IP law-related jobs. Just take a look at how many stand-alone IP firms there are in the DC area. In fact, most of my classmates at Pierce ended up at IP firms in DC – so I think you are well placed.

   I also agree w/ you that the salaries are high at Pierce b/c of its IP focus. That was part of my initial point – that a small school isolated from a major city can still give its graduates great opportunities.

   I actually went to CUA undergrad, and if I had not wanted to try a different area of the country, might have gone there for law school. It’s a great school and you will surely be well positioned to work in IP when you graduate. Best of luck.
2. 62

   I recently had to make the choice to go to Catholic University instead of attending Franklin Pierce. The decision to go to CUA was made mainly for the reason that I can work while I go to school and can get the IP experience from my job at the PTO. Pierce Law graduate’s post above seems to be the sentiment felt by most graduates of that school. However, with respect to pay it is likely that the pay of Pierce Law graduates is so high is because most are going in to IP law…since that is really all they have there. Though my decision has already been made..I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on my decision to choose CUA over Pierce Law?
3. 61

   Mizzou JD 77 and GWU LLM 1983 — so that Patently-O Rankings look pretty good to me
4. 60

   BigGuy wrote: “So, with the understanding that you didn’t make this term up, what do you think “median salary range” means, when used to characterize a single school?”

   Although I’ve never seen it described as a “median range,” this sounds like the interquartile range metric that lists the spread of the middle 50% of a range of value, i.e., the spread between the 25th %-ile (1st quartile) and the 75th %-ile (3rd quartile).
5. 59

   BigGuy,

   I have no idea how our median salary ranking compares with that of Franklin Pierce. I could not find that information on-line. I haven’t received my print version of this year’s rankings yet. However, I looked at last year’s print version and did not find any information regarding median salaries.

   Barbara
6. 58

   Barbara,
   You’re right that the US News rankings are silly, but that doesn’t keep the schools from falling over themselves to improve their ranking. But the important question is this: where does Depaul’s upper end of the median salary range fall? Better or worse than the upper end of the median salary range for those statistics wizards over at Franklin Pierce?
7. 57

   You should not be misled by the US News Rankings. US News does not send a ballot to every law professor who teaches at least one course. US News sends a ballot to every third (or perhaps fourth) professor listed as teaching IP by the Association of American Law Schools. There is no assurance that any school will receive any ballots through this system. For the past three years, US News’ “random” system managed to miss all of the professors who teach IP at my school. I’m amazed that we ranked as highly as we did given that none of us got the chance to vote for ourselves.

   It is also enlightening to know that there are very view votes that separate the schools. I suggested to Bob Morse at US News that the number of votes that each school received be printed along with the ranking. That would give the reader a better perspective on just how much the actual ranking means.
8. 56

   Re: BigGuy

   You are right, I believe they reserve that info for the print version. I have not found it online either.

   As with most of these US News statistics, I think it is subject to a lot of error. However, I was using it as one portion of an argument that the Pierce Law grads (Piercers, maybe) are regarded as being well prepared (or potentially well prepared) for success in the patent field. However, it could be that higher-paying firms simply hire from a school where they know many grads will end up in the patent field, making each one more likely to have connections down the line. I really am not sure.

   Generally, the high end of the “median salary range” indicates whether big firms hire consistently from a school. As I recall, all the top 10 schools (by US News Ranking), and probably the top 20-30, all have a very similar figure at the top of their median salary ranges. But outside of those schools there is a sizable drop as you push toward the bottom of the 1st tier and even more so in the 2nd and 3rd tier (these “tiers” are all US News metrics). Pierce Law is in the third tier overall, but has a good portion of its students going to these bigger firms. This makes it a bit different than many of the schools in its tier, and distinct from many of the more highly-regarded schools, at least in this aspect.

   I didn’t mean to get off on a side issue (salaries), but the original post to which I was responding suggested that a third-tier school didn’t belong on the list… I was trying to counter that suggestion.
9. 55

   “The “median salary range” is a metric used by US News to rank the law schools – it is not a term I derived. I should have made that clear in the initial post, as I understand not everyone is familiar with the publications about which they post blog comments.”

   I was just yanking your chain, but now I’m interested. I couldn’t find a thing on the US News law school ranking website about “median salary range”, and it doesn’t appear that salaries are a criteria in their rankings. Perhaps they reserve the really good stuff for the print version…

   So, with the understanding that you didn’t make this term up, what do you think “median salary range” means, when used to characterize a single school?

   By the way, there’s a Pierce Law grad (Piercy? Piercer?) down the hall – he’s just fine.
10. 54

    Re: BigGuy & Fighting Irishman

    The “median salary range” is a metric used by US News to rank the law schools – it is not a term I derived. I should have made that clear in the initial post, as I understand not everyone is familiar with the publications about which they post blog comments. The simple point I attempted to convey in that post was that high-paying firms routinely higher a large volume of graduates from Pierce Law, and that most of those firms are patent or IP focused.

    While I agree w/ Fighting Irishman that a great deal of what we use as practitioners is learned in the field, I was addressing a question above about how well Pierce Law prepares its students for the practice of patent law. In very simple terms, a portion of my argument was that if firms consistently pay high starting salaries to the patent bar-eligible students from Pierce Law, that there is at least a strong perception that those students are worth the high price.
11. 53

    Alun Palmer wrote:”The ABA so heavily loads the JD curriculum as to make it impossible to include any significant amount of IP law. Whilst I deplore this state of affairs, the nice thing about it is that, as a patent agent, I know about as much patent law as anybody, graduating only from my undergrad engineering school and from the law school of hard knocks, LOL!”

    How is it exactly that the ABA “loads the JD curriculum?” I invite you to read the “Program of Legal Education” portion of the ABA Standards for Approval (link to abanet.org). You will find that not a single course is dictated by the ABA. Yes, there are core requirements that many, if not most, schools make you take during your first year, but those are not dictated by the ABA.

    And, yes, bar passage rates do factor into compliance with Standard 301, but the upper tier law schools (define that as broadly as you want so as not to be offended) are not paranoid about slipping out of compliance due to bar passage rates, so they generally do not even *require* you to take the so-called “bar courses” (other than those that are part of the 1L curriculum). I skipped three of the subjects tested on the bar exam for my state to pursue something I found more interesting.

    So I reject your premise that the ABA stands in the way of taking a significant amount of IP law. I do appreciate, however, that it was just a set-up for your being able to snipe at those mean people who unjustifiably lord their JD’s over you when you know that in fact you received a superior education.
12. 52

    “I would counsel people to pick a law school based on its overall reputation and not its IP focus. My impression is that most employers are far more impressed with a big name school (or football tradition in the case of ND :^)) than they are the specific IP classes you took.”

    Agreed. The subject of what IP classes the candidate took has never come up for me, whether I was the candidate or the interviewer.
13. 51

    The ABA so heavily loads the JD curriculum as to make it impossible to include any significant amount of IP law. Whilst I deplore this state of affairs, the nice thing about it is that, as a patent agent, I know about as much patent law as anybody, graduating only from my undergrad engineering school and from the law school of hard knocks, LOL!
14. 50

    “I wonder how much difference it makes.” When I began full time studies at Notre Dame Law School I had already transitioned from engineering to the legal department of my company and passed the agent’s exam. I had written a few patent cases from scratch and had a prosecution docket. The one IP class they had at the time was a joke. During law school I continued to manage my docket and filed 30-40 new cases. I learned nothing about IP from law school; everything on the job. I feel like I have had a successful career and education certainly has not held me back. I would counsel people to pick a law school based on its overall reputation and not its IP focus. My impression is that most employers are far more impressed with a big name school (or football tradition in the case of ND :^)) than they are the specific IP classes you took.

    “You will also find the upper-end of the median salary range . . . ” Not to pick on anyone, but this reminds me of when I was considering ND and an alum told me it was a ‘second top ten’ school. Huh?! You mean a top 20 school?
15. 49

    I am surprised Paul Janicke from the University of Houston didn’t get a shout out. He is a fantastic professor and very patent-focused.
16. 48

    Another JMLS Alum here appreciating the proud alum and Windy City shout to JMLS.

    We get no respect in the national picture but midwesterners know what a quality program they run.
17. 47

    “You will also find the upper-end of the median salary range at Pierce Law to be nearly as high as any law school in the country, regardless of tier.”

    Since I can’t figure out what “upper-end of the median salary range” means, I’ll have to take your word for it. But how does the upper end of the lower third of the median salary range compare?

    It appears that Pierce Law is also one of the best law schools for preparing graduates to produce those most damnable of lies, to wit, impressive sounding statistics.
18. 46

    >>Mark Lemley (Stanford University): 2110 >>citations, age 41.

    I would propose using the following metric. Compute the number of times that Lemley is cited by the faculty of a law school in their books/papers. Substract postive cites from negative cites (where negative cites include derisive comments about Lemley.) The law school with the highest score should be the number one ranked school in intellectual property.

    Stanford should be placed last on the list.
19. 45

    RE: in-house

    As a graduate of Franklin Pierce Law Center, I am somewhat biased. However, I understand that Pierce Law is generally regarded as one of the top schools for patent law in the nation, and has been for quite some time. I believe you will have trouble finding evidence to the contrary. Pierce Law is an independent law school, that is not affiliated with a university (which is what I believe you were suggesting). As an overall program, it is small, and not overly-funded. However, roughly 35-40% of each graduating class is “patent-bar” eligible, meaning they have a technical degree in engineering or the sciences. This number is quite high compared to most any other law school. As a great deal of these graduates go into patent law (as opposed to “soft” IP practices such as trademarks, copyrights, and licensing), many of the top patent (and IP, generally) firms employ graduates from Pierce Law. I am not suggesting that “soft” IP is less valuable than patent practice (or “hard” IP), but those soft IP practices are open to all students, not just those with technical degrees.

    Aside from career placement, Pierce Law offers a variety of classes focused specifically on patent law (separate from TM, copyrights and licensing). The “patent” focus of these courses, and the overall placement of graduates in “patent-focused” practice areas, makes Pierce one of the best law schools for preparing graduates for a career in patent law. You will also find the upper-end of the median salary range at Pierce Law to be nearly as high as any law school in the country, regardless of tier.
20. 44

    “Second: I agree that this list should not be taken seriously. Although I would argue that it is at least as good as the US News ranking…”

    Yeah, because we all know that “Richmond” is right up there with “NYU” (LMAO) and “Missouri,” “Denver,” “Arkansas,” and “DePaul” are all better ranked than “Yale,” “Chicago,” and “UPenn” (LMAO even harder). Might I suggest, DC, that you stick to providing your neat little synopses of Federal Circuit cases rather then venturing into the world of law school rankings.
21. 43

    “I’d be interested in knowing how many hits this site gets from the PTO. Reason I ask is that recently and almost by accident I believe I uncovered the secret identity of 6k (which I will keep secret). I told that to a few people on my hallway and got only blank looks. 0 out of 5 had heard of 6k. 1 out of 5 had heard of Patently-O, but wasn’t a regular reader.”

    I’m rather easy to find out if one takes the time to look. Much like some other posters on this site, cough cough, recently found out reader who won’t acknowledge you were found out.

    And yes, I’m by no means famoose here in the office. But, by rights I should be thanks to a new production the office is putting on based on me. It’s rather ridiculous.

    “Maybe more examiners would actually understand the case law they applied (especially KSR, Bilski) if they read this blog.”

    Of that you can be assured.
22. 42

    me ranted: “Your list is a total crock. Haven’t you read IP Today and that BS whining crybaby Stanford once again seeking to have the world pay for their existence. They are complaining about having to pay royalties for a patent that they have been alleged to infringe. Stanford clearly does not belong on the list.”

    The USN&WR ranking is of the law school. Until you demonstrate a nexus between the law school and the alleged infringing activities, your conclusion will not follow.

    I also note that you used the phrase “*alleged* to have infringed.” You are really up in arms about an entity that is not even an adjudicated infringer?

    Last point: IP Today is not exactly the pinnacle of IP scholarship or journalism. It appears to me to be primarily a vehicle through which IP firms market themselves.
23. 41

    Proud alum, nice shout out for JMLS, although our standing has fallen significantly since Mueller left. However, Judge Holderman teaching IP trial advocacy is as good as it gets, so JMLS still merits mention.
24. 40

    Now how many of those institutions have alum that were involved with any of the banking institutions that have had to received Federal Bailout Money (aka fleecing or otherwise ripping-off the public) and shake in fear for it is obvious that the philosphy and ideology, as well as the academic and expertise of those institutions fostered the greatest theft in the history of Mankind. Perhaps we should call it the greatest wealth transfer in the history of the United States from those that work to make this country strong to those who have lofty degrees and titles that allow them to assume authority and the appears of trust King George of England would have envied to have over the Thirteen Colonies. The more things change . . . the more they stay the same.
25. 39

    Hastings had a patent prosecution seminar similar to that described for Loyola. My understanding is that a series of practitioners acting as adjunct faculty have taught the class continuously at least as far back as the early ’90s.

    Similarly, Santa Clara has a class devoted to patents that involves some of the same exercises. That class dates back to the pre-Chisum days.

    The comment about UCSF was meant as merely mild criticism – they do have a fairly active tech transfer office.
26. 38

    From a proud alum:

    link to jmls.edu
27. 37

    The number of IPL Professor papers cited with approval [or even read] by appellate courts would be a far more accurate [and far less incestuous] measure of quality than mere citations in other prof’s judicially unread papers.
    [I would bet that would be won hands-down by my old law school classmate J. Thomas McCarthy for his leading trademark law treatise, and that many others would score zeros.]
28. 36

    First: UCSF was in the list unintentionally. I agree that they do not have a law school and have removed the university. Hastings did not make the list.

    Second: I agree that this list should not be taken seriously. Although I would argue that it is at least as good as the US News ranking…
29. 35

    With respect to UCSF that is another example of the total lack of veracity in this list of purported IP institutions. He probably meant UC Hastings which is the ONLY university in the UC system dedicated solely to teaching law.
30. 34

    “These institutions a spouting”

    FIIIIIVE GOLDEN RINGS!!!!!!
31. 33

    Your list is a total crock. Haven’t you read IP Today and that BS whining crybaby Stanford once again seeking to have the world pay for their existence. They are complaining about having to pay royalties for a patent that they have been alleged to infringe. Stanford clearly does not belong on the list.
    Moreover, many of these programs, Franklin Pierce being the exception, didn’t give a rats A about IP ten years ago.

    They stating they are IP schools is not unlike Applied Materials marketing itself as the number one produce of nano-technology manufacturing systems. In the 1990s these systems were called semiconductor manufacturing systems. The end result is a rose by any other name makes you sneeze if you are allergic. These institutions a spouting the same anti-states rights pro-corporate anti-U.S. citizen BS law they always have taught since WWII.
32. 32

    “”However, only a few have a patent focus.”

    “Which would you consider to have a patent focus?”

    “My guess is a patent focus is not a copyright, trademark, trade secret focus.”

    The question was not “What is a patent focus?”
33. 31

    Loyola has a great IP selection. The copyright and trademark classes are highly recommended. Additionally, the Patent prosecution class is unique in that you right an application and the Prof acts as an Examiner.

    anyone else had that treatment?
34. 30

    “working on patents all day can dull your sense of humor”

    Assumes too much.
35. 29

    In response to this comment:
    “What exactly are you ranking here? You’re basing the quality of a given law school’s patent program upon quantity of that school’s visits to Patently-O? This is a bit of a leap, don’t you think?”

    I would like to say this: Do you really believe that Prof C thinks that a school is better than another due to the # of hits from Patentlyo? You really that it’s not tongue-in-cheek?

    I know that working on patents all day can dull your sense of humor, but come on. It’s a joke!
36. 28

    Another obvious issue – UCSF does not have a law school – it is solely a med. school…
37. 27

    “I have redone my list of the top thirty law school patent programs based solely on the number of Patently-O visits received from the associated university in the past year.”

    What exactly are you ranking here? You’re basing the quality of a given law school’s patent program upon quantity of that school’s visits to Patently-O? This is a bit of a leap, don’t you think?

    Perhaps you should re-write the statement to read:
    “I have redone my list of the top thirty law school patent programs to visit Patently-O based solely on the number of Patently-O visits received from the associated university in the past year.”
38. 26

    Someone asked about Patently-O stats from the PTO. As far as I can tell, Patently-O receives more visits from USPTO computers than from any other network domain. A

    About 5.5% of all Patently-O visits come from PTO computers. This number would include examiners, searchers in the search rooms, administrative judges, and administration.

    Next on the list: US Courts; Jones Day; MoFo; etc.
39. 25

    Polling quesiton:

    What’s the general opinoin regarding the graduates from Franklin Pierce Law Center with respect to their IP knowlege? The law center is not (yet) affiliated with any law school, and it ranks in the third tier (or lower) in general.

    Just curious
40. 24

    “How nice that my law school alma mater (Richmond) is tied for 10th.”

    EG, that’s the list ranked by # of Patently-O hits. I think Malcolm works in the bookstore there – perhaps that explains the ranking?
41. 23

    It is a little bizarre that Harvard (Fisher, Benkler, Zittrain, and now Lessig again) doesn’t even make the list. But I guess it is a little far afield from traditional IP.
42. 22

    Of course the number of hits is going to correlate with the size of the program so quality may be a less significant factor.
43. 21

    How nice that my law school alma mater (Richmond) is tied for 10th. It probably helps that they’ve got an IP Institute with 3 top notch IP professors (Jim Gibson, Chris Cotropia and Kristen Jakobsen Osenga). Both Cotropia and Osenga have EE undergraduate degrees which says alot for Richmond (even if I’m an undergraduate chemist). Go Spiders!
44. 20

    Shouldn’t the PTO be on the list? Quite a few lawyers I know work there to get the experience that was missing from law school.
45. 19

    “Both of my law schools U of Houston(JD)and GW (LLM)are on the list.”

    To what address should we send the congratulatory box of cookies??
46. 18

    Your research on the “top thirty law school patent programs based solely on the number of Patently-O visits received from the associated university in the past year”

    is so cute!

    You’ve got to figure out a way to tie to to a machine and patent this new method of doing research. I suppose the number of hits of swine flu Google searches will be prior art, however.
47. 17

    American should be on the list. The IP Clinic has increased in success and significance every year, and it is considered a leader in the copyright field. While it could use a few more quality faculty members, the program does an excellent job of preparing a student for “real-world” IP work.
48. 16

    “6, MM, and their puppet peers”

    I see the regular troll is still working it.

    If anyone has any doubt about just how deep the paranoia runs in certain circles, just check out this comment thread:

    link to patenthawk.com

    That’s why we have restraining orders.
49. 15

    “Maybe more examiners would actually understand the case law they applied (especially KSR, Bilski) if they read this blog.”

    Or would even more miserably misunderstand it, especially if they’re listening to 6, MM, and their puppet peers.
50. 14

    Speaking of readership….

    I’d be interested in knowing how many hits this site gets from the PTO. Reason I ask is that recently and almost by accident I believe I uncovered the secret identity of 6k (which I will keep secret). I told that to a few people on my hallway and got only blank looks. 0 out of 5 had heard of 6k. 1 out of 5 had heard of Patently-O, but wasn’t a regular reader. Maybe more examiners would actually understand the case law they applied (especially KSR, Bilski) if they read this blog.
51. 13

    Both of my law schools U of Houston(JD)and GW (LLM)are on the list.
52. 12

    Best patent program = number of visits to my blog…

    Nice.
53. 11

    I think it is amazing that Santa Clara has that ranking, given that it is in the Silicon Valley. However, I believe Chisum left. That may have impacted the ranking.
54. 10

    “”However, only a few have a patent focus.”

    “Which would you consider to have a patent focus?”

    My guess is a patent focus is not a copyright, trademark, trade secret focus.
55. 9

    pleased to see that my alma mater — GW — still receives a high ranking
56. 8

    “I wonder how much difference it makes.”

    None.
57. 7

    I wonder how much difference it makes. My law school only had a couple of IP classes, which I took, but I didn’t learn much about how to be an IP attorney from them. I know how copyright law developed over the years, and where the basis for patent law is found in the constitution, but I learned how to write claims from my first bosses sitting around the conference room table and ripping my attempts apart.

    In fact, law school overall spent a lot more time teaching us how to be law professors than lawyers . . .
58. 6

    “However, only a few have a patent focus.”

    Which would you consider to have a patent focus?
59. 5

    I’m a little bit confuzzled, where is D’s university? Obviously they get no. 1 spot for his presence there.
60. 4

    Cardozo? Really? Is IP the new usury?
61. 3

    Malcolm Mooney,

    Do you mean Torture U?
62. 2

    “University of California–Berkeley”

    In addition to a great IP department, you can also take a constitutional law class from a real live war criminal.
63. 1

    Chicago-Kent is unlikely to even crack this list next year. Three key members of the IP faculty left this year, though the administration was able to get them to hold off on making their respective announcements until after the US News information was turned in. Woe be unto the pre-1L that has chosen Kent based on these rankings.

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